Condor 2.0? honesty please

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OXO
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby OXO » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:05 pm

I'm a professional software engineer and project manager, so I won't be taking your advice.
OXO,
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johanp
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby johanp » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:27 pm

OXO wrote:I'm a professional software engineer and project manager, so I won't be taking your advice.


Yeah so am I. I didn't intend giving offence (or advice for that matter), so I apologise for the way that came across.

I've been reading the rest of the thread:

OXO wrote:OK, I will comment.

We won't be playing any of these pricing tricks with Condor.

The happiness of our loyal community is worth more than a quick buck.


Really?? I don't believe you, given the way you've been treating your loyal community for the last almost-a-dozen years!

I also saw this:
Uros wrote:Ok guys, here we go: entered alpha/pre-beta, many years work, almost there, we are very proud of it. Future assured for upgrades/planes.

Which helps me a lot to calm down, because it feels a bit more like real news than just saying (in more polite words) "shut up, it's coming" (that's my translation of "IRWIR").

BBU25
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby BBU25 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:29 pm

Ho,can you stop that.It's too much improductive and without interest!

HornetSk
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby HornetSk » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:12 pm

I am going here last months each day to see if it is that day...hope that to this summer V2 will be here...the waiting is really long. All it is associated with my dream to fly Condor in VR....sorry for that.
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phercek
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby phercek » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:48 pm

johanp, you seem a bit naive if you expect any time scales. OXO told you that they work on it in their free time. Any good manager can realize consequences of that. This is the critical difference between Condor developers and regular companies. Why the hell would OXO and company bother with planning, estimation, and god forbid some regular scrum standup meetings. Companies do that to mitigate risks; to make sure the required feature set is understood and still valid and there is still good chance for the target ROI based on the latest projections. If the developers work for free, for fun from the work itself, then there is no need to mitigate these risks. It does not seem they are in it for the money. The pricing structure does not indicate it at least :)
They must have quite a good idea what they want to improve in Condor v2 ... well at least because they have written Condor v1. There is hardly any risk they would be developing crap which is not useful. The only thing they somewhat need to avoid is "gold plating", adding features forever and never releasing. You can do that without most of the proper process. Just have criteria when it is finished and try not change these criteria. You do not need much of a process for that. Why the hell would they do intermediate releases or previews or planning how the release date is changing based on the work progress ... or whether a feature set needs to be cut down to meat the deadline. It is a lot of time to release a product ... even as a preview. Planning and keeping estimates updated takes time too. And provided the required feature set is mostly clear and hype does not need to fed and release date is not fixed, then these proper management activities are mostly just lost time.

In a way, it is a pity they are not in it for money. The results would be out much sooner ... or never at all if investors cannot be found :lol:

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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby tom eagles » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:07 am

Trying to dictate when and what news developers release will get nowhere fast, most major companies if anything let people know a new version is in the pipeline and as things get closer to release some features are announced. Some just simply keep quiet and I am talking about AAA software houses.

Remember the simple reason people still use condor version 1 is there is nothing better than it even almost 12 years after its initial release and that was developed by two guys in their spare time. Have you stopped to read through the various posts here and in other threads, some thing have been revealed no one is telling anyone to shut up, it will simply be ready when its ready and not before.

Its already been confirmed by UROS and OXO that condor will continue beyond v2, but when you have two guys who are top of their field in their own main jobs development time is going to be slower than if you had a whole team of developers working on it full time day in day out. If it wasnt for the dedication of them v2 wouldnt even be in development now.

It's on its way they have confirmed that, trying to dictate how and when they do things is not going to get anyone anywhere.

V2 is going to be awesome in the mean time enjoy v1 its still top of its field.
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janjansen
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby janjansen » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:14 am

tom eagles wrote:Its already been confirmed by UROS and OXO that condor will continue beyond v2, but when you have two guys who are top of their field in their own main jobs development time is going to be slower than if you had a whole team of developers working on it full time day in day out. If it wasnt for the dedication of them v2 wouldnt even be in development now.


Lets see V2 before claims of a version beyond that ;)

My biggest question is: is condor V2 using their own graphics/physics/game engine, or is it based on some third party engine?

If the former, like V1, I am going to be sceptical about its future. There is only so much 2 people can do in their spare time, and at the same time, game engines like unity or outera, or even flight sims like DCS or xplane, keep raising the bar of what people expect from a modern flight sim. Support for modern features like VR and proper multimonitor support, keeping up with new directx releases, but also small things like realistically flowing water, trees or even grass that move in the wind, cars driving on roads, .. and of course the big things, like terrain engines that combine satellite data with fractal generation, accurate maps that span much of the globe, editors that can pull in data from OSM,.. I fear those expectations will soon exceed what 2 people can deliver.

When I look at modern flight sims, I cant help but think that the best future condor would be a DCS, outera or xplane add-on, that fixes the short comings of those sims (glider models, atmospheric modelling, flight tasks and multi user racing logic and features, basically all the things that made condor V1 so good..) but draws on the countless man years of development that went in to, and continue to go in to the rest.

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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby janjansen » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:56 am

tom eagles wrote:V2 is going to be awesome in the mean time enjoy v1 its still top of its field.


I agree, in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is (still) king.

As a hobby, I also fly 250mm class and <100mm "tiny whoop" FPV racing drones. A few years ago, the only flight simulators where traditional proprietary RC sims with some afterthought quadcopter models and FPV viewpoint. They where terrible for our purposes. Think microsoft simulatorX with a glider model. Yeah, but, no.

So a few drone racing pilots/developers made their own simulators, using unity or similar 3D and physics engines, in a matter of months, literally, they made several sims that, while still rough, already blew the old competition out of the water. Fast forward a year or two, and now we have half a dozen decent sims, some with pretty darn realistic flight physics (most important), and we got all the "free" goodies from the underlying engine like robust multiplayer support, along with modern graphics (including VR) and physics for things like moving grass/branches/flowing water, even realistic flocks of birds which serve no purpose whatsoever in a FPV racing sim, but that Id love to see in condor.

What Im saying is that condor is still king of the hill, because very few people tried to make a good soaring sim, and afaik, no one else bothered to make a soaring competition simulator. But I think that could be done relatively quickly if V2 doesnt live up to expectations. A gliding simulator is more complex than a multirotor racing simulator, no question about that. The flight physics are probably harder, the atmospheric modelling is definitely a lot harder, the scales of the sceneries is orders of magnitude larger. But still, I cant help but wonder how long it would take a skilled developer to add glider competition specific features to a modern flight simulator platform that already solved most of these challenges. Its not going to be 10 years.
Last edited by janjansen on Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Slartibartfast
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby Slartibartfast » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:05 am

That was well spoken janjansen.

This thread is obviously not the place to discuss it at length but I just wanted to say I find what you say there very valid.

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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby tom eagles » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:34 am

My last and final comment, if it were that easy to do then it would have already happened but tell me any sim that has the same accurate weather modelling and even multiplayer facility for gliding even without competitions. And I have yet to see any sim that comes close to the realistic thermal, ridge lift generation thats in condor, of course if you count looking for a few birds flying round in a circle as a pointer for thermals like in fsx then no comment lol.

Lets take for example the way that condor works, thermals are based on the actual scenery, so where you would expect to find thermals and of different types they appear in condor fields, forests of different types etc all generate thermals differently, Thermals on sunny side of ridges etc etc. No one does this accurately other than condor. Sure there are addons that make the weather in FSX a bit more realistic etc BUT they are addons not built in to the sim.

As for the eye candy side of things that you mention there is a simple reason its not like that in condor which really even anyone with any experience of working in sims would understand is that there is no way you could have 32 players successfully flying the same task and in the same instance without a huge fps issue people use condor not because of the eye candy but because its so damn accurate, want eyecandy over accuracy and realism then FSX or the like is there.
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HornetSk
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby HornetSk » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:15 pm

The main problem is that we dont know - months? years?....this is all, such waiting is really long. But we all look forward! :-) V2 will be awesome!
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janjansen
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby janjansen » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:42 pm

eyecandy in single or multiplayer barely makes any difference in FPS. So what if you need to render a few more gliders? You probably want to render some other gliders in single player too.

However, you are completely correct we still play condor V1 because of the strengths you mention. I couldnt agree more.
Which is exactly why I wrote what I did, as I would hope the 2 dev's concentrated their decade of programming effort mostly on doing what they did better than anyone else, and doing what no else was/is doing properly, like accurate atmospheric and thermal modelling - rather than spend their time reinventing the wheel making yet another 3D global illumination whatever graphics engine.

That latter has been done over and over, and you can just use Unity (or others) that will do this 10x better than any 2 man dev team could ever hope to achieve. Also, if you do that, you get all the eyecandy and advanced features like VR, multiprojection rendering etc virtually for free. Wouldnt it be nice to have local rain or snow showers in condor? Realistic rivers and waterfalls? To have realistically flying birds? To have traffic on roads? None of that is crucial, but doing that from scratch would probably require weeks or months, so with a two man team, it probably will never happen. But if you use a popular engine, you just plug in a module like this: https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/3897

Thats just an example, no one is waiting for V2 to have realistic looking birds, but my point is that you could easily implement stuff like that while costing you far less time than making a relatively basic engine from scratch. Moreover, in 5 or 10 years, something like unity will most likely still be around and support whatever hardware we use then. Who's going to do that for a proprietary engine? V1 was never even updated to support DX8 and thus UHD resolution or multiple monitors, full screen + anti aliasing, let alone make use of any of the other giant leaps we've taken in graphics technology like hardware tessellation.

Mind you, its perfectly possible V2 is indeed based on some third party engine, for graphics, or even physics. Im hoping so. That would have given them 10 years to concentrate mostly on the gliding and racing specific stuff no one else is doing, and the result could be awesome.
Last edited by janjansen on Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby Pit_R » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:23 pm

janjansen wrote:what people expect from a modern flight sim:
multimonitor support
VR
realistically flowing water
trees or even grass that move in the wind
cars driving on roads
terrain engines that combine satellite data with fractal generation
accurate maps that span much of the globe

the best future condor would be a DCS, outera or xplane add-on


Hope you're wrong in your post. ;)
If you really need those, you can use them, even today: DCS, RoF, gliders in XPlane or FSX/P3D. :)

Ask yourself why sims above aren't as good as Condor, even with great visual/physics engines.
Are those developers not interested in realistic physics or maybe their tools are unable to do that?!

IMVHO
Condor 2 just need:
- more complex weather [very important]
- maybe few gliders more [may come later]
- and 30 m terrain mesh [would be great]
- nothing else in fact imho.

[+ maybe little redesign thermals (esp. in mountains) etc but it could be done /and was before, in patches/ in C1 right now.]

Opposite to you - I am affraid rather, that C2 will be rewritten from scratch so will use new graphic and physic engine (similar to sims above). Will be up with new directx releases (Win10 a must!) And we will finally see famous moving grass.
But will C2 preserve its unique, very well modelled physics? Hope so, but I am affraid.

Would be really sad if instead of weather/avionic/physics improvements and new features we would get totally new product, not as good as before, but full of eye candies...

"Better is the enemy of good." ;)

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No matter where you go... There you are...

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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby tom eagles » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:19 pm

There will be no sacrifice in favour of Eyecandy, thats never been what condor is about which is is a realistic soaring environment with full competition support thats what the dev's have always aimed for throughout its development I dont see that changing now, sure with the announced support for DX11 it opens a whole load of things that can be done. Condor has its own engine specific to what it does and its always been optimised so it will run on a wide range of PC's , with a huge jump from the early DX version that V1 used to DX11 it wouldnt have been a simple easy rewrite. They gave us V1 and thats stood the test of time, lets give the team the benefit of the doubt and assume they know what they are doing after all they haven't done too bad so far. I think also the community and the addons created by it show just how much love there is for Condor and I am certain V2 wont disappoint when it lands!
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janjansen
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Re: Condor 2.0? honesty please

Postby janjansen » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:50 pm

Pit_R wrote:Hope you're wrong in your post. ;)


I can do selective out-of-context quoting too! Here:

Pit_R wrote:Condor 2 just need:
rewritten from scratch so will use new graphic and physic engine
moving grass.

not as good as before, but full of eye candies...


I hope you're wrong too ;)

What some of you dont seem to realise is that condor V2 needs a 3D graphics engine (and one more up to date than V1). It needs a terrain engine, it desperately needs good sceneries and/or tools to make them. It needs a physics engine. It needs multiplayer support, dedicated server software etc etc.

Now you can wish Uros and Oxo spent 10 years on developping those things, trying to make something that still may not be as good as off the shelve engines where in those regards 5 or 10 years ago. Or you can hope as I do, they instead spent their time more wisely concentrating improving the stuff that doesnt exist off the shelve, like good thermal/meteorological models.

But if it makes you feel any better, you can disable moving trees, realistic water or atmospheric effects in Unity! Even the grass is entirely optional :)


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